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Monday, September 28, 2009

Comments about Art and Science


We are not humans having a spiritual experience,
we are spirits having a human experience.

Pierre Chardin




Science

  1. Ignorance is bliss.
  2. Knowledge, "...can't get no satisfaction!"
  1. About the tea party...Quantum physics teaches us that there's no good reason, or law, that stops the pouring tea from going up. And the broken egg can mend itself. Yeah, right.
  1. Define everything that a human being is in truth (not honesty) and all the other answers are verifiable through standard theorem, test and prove procedures.
  2. Until one understands the totality of "human" then no explanation to the question is possible because all of the components of the equation are not included.
  1. I can't see the forest because I am a tree. So when I fell, I fell in backwards. Heaven is within. Only Time will tell if I made a sound when I landed. Assume I did. I made a big bang, and a choir of angels roared in my behalf.

Science and Art

  1. I believe poetry is a more accurate description of the world than science because time is not linear. Science is based on linear causality across time, prose like this is linear. Time is not linear and poetry is how language escapes linearity.
  1. Numbers are a means to an end, art is an end in itself, it is meaning.
  1. i know...
  2. but it's not enough, i know
  3. i love...and it's not little, you know

  4. i'm standing on a dot
  5. but i can see
  6. infinity
  7. and
  8. beyond
  1. I believe art is also crucial for the well being of the brain. We have evolved over time from periods of intense physical activity, where the body was exercised continuously just to find and capture food, to leading sedentary lives. Thus,the effect of no exercise on the body can be clearly seen. As the body gets less exercise, the brain takes a more prominent role, 'thinking' instead of physically 'doing'.
  2. Art can occupy the brain when it needs its own exercise, when it isn't taking care of the physical aspects of the body's operation.
  3. Art is an outlet for the mind, as physical exertion is an outlet for pent up aggression.

Art

  1. I think that art might replace the playing activity kids do everyday and grown ups stop doing, Art has pretty similar characteristics to playing, it is exploratory, it is fun, it involves discovering, it involves learning and creating, and so on.
  1. ...beauty isn't strictly located in the brain..." well, the brain isn't strictly beautiful, either.
  1. There is no doubt that perception allows people to connect, and that I believe is our true nature.
  2. We are all connected in a sense yet granted the gift of our unique perceptions.
  1. Have you considered that the universe itself might be sentient and that the laws of physics are merely universal thought patterns? In this view, would reality be changeable or plastic as defined by universal thought?

Artists


Val, Walking man, Uncle Tree, Scribulus, Squires, Stu, Human Being, Rick

54 comments:

Charles Gramlich said...

Science and art together give us a better picture of the universe than either does alone.

Mariana Soffer said...

Charles Gramlich
You are absolutelly right, and also the hole is more than the sum of its parts.

Thanks!

RDC said...

Hi Mariana, sorry to be outside all that time.

I think the division between art and science is an occidetnal myth as soon as there are not universal laws but hypothesis, so, our mental creations.

Nice to read you again

Eshuneutics said...

Your have rich and finely expressed insights. I must read more in the near future. I like your reflections on music and memory...poetry has (in many cases) lost its roots in music and in doing so lost its connection to memory. Thank you.

/t. said...

wow!

so much
food for thought

really love this, Numbers are a means to an end, art is an end in itself, it is meaning. -- this is, i think, very true

× × ×

/t.

paulandrewrussell said...

"Have you considered that the universe itself might be sentient and that the laws of physics are merely universal thought patterns? In this view, would reality be changeable or plastic as defined by universal thought?"

I'd never had the thought the universe may be sentient, Mariana. I'll have to think about this one. I had a 'lightbulb' moment when I read this. Thanks for the thought.

"Artists" - Thank you. :-)

Andy Coffey said...

Nice Blog,

I found it on Faun.
Your "system" of numbering the postulates is highly amusing and profound.
I love thinking about what you write here.
Thanks

Mariana Soffer said...

RDC
Nice to have you hear, I feel glad. Hope you had a good time.

I kind of agree with what you said but I would put it maybe in some other way. But for sure we are on the same page.
Or maybe they can complement and encourage each other, how about that? sounds like an interesting theory to my brain.
Take care and thanks for your share
M

Mariana Soffer said...

Eshuneutics
I am glad you like my blog, I am really flattered about that, but indeed the things that are written here are from the visitors of it. Which I really cherish and believe in.

What you mention is a really interesting text, that leaves me and probably you thinking about that for a long time.

Thanks for sharing it with me
M

Mariana Soffer said...

t
thanks so much for stepping by, and I like the sentence you choose, it is incredible isn't it. I will promise that I will search which one of the authors had it wrote, or we can ask him, if you read this please let us know.

Thanks t t t

Mariana Soffer said...

paulandrewrussell
I considered that the universe might be sentient, I thought about it a lot. Many times I think that patterns repeat at the different scales, even dough they are the same. TO answer to your last part of the paragraph, I am inclined to say no (I do not have a proper reason, I just do not think that everything is completely random, that is why):

My pleasure to share my thoughts with you, remember what I said, I never meant I am sure of it, or really believe it, I just contemplate and play with the fact of what if?

Thanks a lot Paul, you are great

Mariana Soffer said...

Andy Coffey

Thank you very much, I am glad you came. And also that you like how I number things in here, I never thought someone would pay attention to it, you are quite something.
Just a small clarification , I did not write this, these sentences were written by my blog visitors at some of my blog posts, you might enjoy also reading some of these:
http://singyourownlullaby.blogspot.com/2009/07/infinity.html

Nice to have you hear Mr Andy

Renee said...

My love to you sweet Mariana.

xoxo

Mariana Soffer said...

Renee, your love is more fulfilling to me than all the scientific digressions and discussions I can win. It makes me realize that they worth to little.

Big Hugh and kiss

Paul said...

Wow, what a cool post. It would be fun to play attach the quote to the speaker. The whole post forms a single poem, a collaborative canvas, very cool.

Shadow said...

isn't life a culmination of a little art and a little science, creating a whole that is? both are necessary, since without a bit of creative thinking, mathematics is impossible to figure out, just as without a little science, writing would not be balanced, form a rhythm? me thinks...

Mariana Soffer said...

Paul:
Thank you very much for your nice words.
I think it is a great idea the one you wrote, really fun and interesting. Indeed I was preparing a second post like this with a couple more authours, but the rest is very similar to this, I am going to think what can I do and how, for participants to bet on whose sentence it is. Let me know if you have any ideas regarding organizing it.

Mariana Soffer said...

Shadow
Hei thanks for visiting, always bringing interesting thoughts.

I definitely think that art and science can help each other, for example an artistic impulse can help with the invention of something, I think science needs something artistic to evolve. Now, I think that art can evolve without science (I am thinking about painting specifically), just by exploring, using intuition and with inspiration. But art can take advantage of science by employing the tools created by it. Art can also experiment and change by using new technologies, that can enrich the artistic experience I think.

Thanks a lot for your opinion, and please feel free to let me know what you think about this, I might be rambling widely here.

Kiss

otin said...

If I ever get to command my own Starship, I want you to be my science officer! LOL!

Mariana Soffer said...

Otin
Sure, I think we will compliment each other perfectly, you will make me laugh, I will do crazy science and we will both explore strange planets.

ines.gato22@hotmail.com said...

There has been a recen study in which
Native African people who have never even listened to the radio before can nonetheless pick up on happy, sad, and fearful emotions in Western music, according to a new report published online on March 19th in Current Biology. The result shows that the expression of those three basic emotions in music can be universally recognized, the researchers said. Isn't music a cultural asset? If so how can it transmit emotions to other cultures different than their own?

Mariana Soffer said...

ines

Music is utterly entwined with notions of memory, of emotion, of identity, of relationship with place and time; of relationship with other human beings, with all living and inanimate objects, relations with the heavens (if any), people's ways of interpreting their worlds in their own specific, very culturally specific ways.
But it has been prooved that the cultural part is less strong and relevant in respect to sentiments and music than the universality we can find in this duet.

Pedro said...

Why don¿t we use as a rule both, language and music, to communicate the different things they can transmit to each other? Why was music relegated to a leisure activity?

Mariana Soffer said...

Pedro

Interesting question, I really do not know.
But in many cultures the continuum between speech and music is used and is a very beautiful one, but we cannot really say, well, speech forms stop here and music starts here. It might be a hole new communication way, which is similar to a mix between music and language.

the walking man said...

Science is a reflection of art and Art is a reflection of science. It depends on who is holding the mirror which is the starting point. Me? I like standing between the reflections and being enveloped in the understanding that neither is dominant, simply a reflection and a refraction one of the other.

Mariana Soffer said...

Walking man
it is so beautiful and poetic the way you say it, that shows your a poem writter, you can not help it.
I agree that neither is dominant, but I am not sure that they are reflections os one another, I think they are different, maybe I would say that they one is the negative reflection of the other. But that is not correct to me either. There are different things, which have some stuff in common and some that are different. Why do you say they are both the same thing? I agree that they are both frameworks and disciplines, right now that is all I can think.

Thank you very much and I will keep thinking about what you say, because it sounds atractive, almost right.

Take care
M

christopher said...

It matters how one approaches science and art. As one who practices, I know that practice is everything. There is the freedom that comes with the mastery of technique. This freedom that arises out of the disciplines of practice is a higher order of being or it can be assuming clarity of purpose, clarity of heart.

This is the fundamental lesson of monastic life.

Jenny said...

Hi Mariana,

Very interesting and thought provoking post this! I think art and science can interact under right circumstances, but sometimes they do act as opposite poles.

This makes me think of my country’s great author August Strindberg. He, obviously, had a talent for writing innovative novels, plays and poetry. But that was not enough for him. Strindberg, who was a personal friend of Nietzsche, wanted to be an Übermensch and break into the scientific fields as well as the literary saloons. He had an obsession with trying to produce gold from mixing various chemicals together and really believed in this. But it all became a complete fiasco and he was being humiliated and laughed at by scientists. In his case, I guess, science and art was not a good marriage.

Thanks for your interesting posts that always evoke meaningful discussions.

Mariana Soffer said...

christopher
I certainly agree with you about the approach, it changes it all.
And I belie in practice too, I think to master the ability is an important very very important thing.

I can do a parallel with what you say to when I got skilled enough to play decent jazz and let my fingers and my mind just play, express, and research

Thanks for your opinion Chrispoter

Mariana Soffer said...

Jenny
Thank you very much jenny for the compliment. I think that is pretty accurate what you say after it. Really well said.

Sadly I do not know him, but I am adding him immediately to my book wish-list. A friend of Niezche (I read him when I was a teen, it is not easy to get it, you have to read carefully), must have been a really smart dude.

So he went also in to the science field, even more interesting, he became a kind of alchemist, I can imagine it did not work for him turning things into gold.

I think his problem was that he was working as an artist while he should have been acting as a scientist.

Thank you for a lot for sharing that amazing story!

Harlequin said...

I especially liked the perspective of the tree...
and there are so many permeable boundaries across these intellectual and expressive forms... I do tend to favour poets...

Val said...

Without science the human race could not evolve and advance and without art we could not incorporate that advancement into our reality. As always mariana, you are beyond tremendous. hugs

human being said...

i love the way your heart and mind dance hand in hand... so gracefully...

i love you, Mariana...

this is another one... i've put it up on my blog... can you solve this problem? (click on it)


~~~ a problem in quantum physics ~~~

:D

A Cuban In London said...

I loved your thoughts on poetry. To me poetry is the subversion of prose.

Greetings from London.

Uncle Tree said...

Hello, Mariana! You've come up with an interesting idea for this post.

Science wishes it could explain away everything spiritual, and take all the fun out of it by reducing it to the creative power of our imagination.

Explanations can never take the place of experience. It's one thing to learn, and another thing to know. Our imagination leads our five senses around like a leader of the pack. The dogs have no choice but to follow along, for they too are concerned with their own survival.

Our leaders may change, but the howling of the dogs remains the same. Material goods buy us time, but time for what? Who teaches us how to make the best use of our fleeting time? What makes everything and every action worthwhile?

Our spirits work and feel better when our bellies are full and our thought box is empty. Not only do we have to walk, but thou art being asked to walk with our feet a foot above the ground.

Love lifted me, and now I tread lightly o'er the material plains below. From up here, I no longer have the need to make sense. I imagine that that's quite obvious to anyone who tries to follow along after me.

Ribbon said...

This is an interesting topic and one to ponder.

You are lovely... it is reflected in this blog.

best wishes
Ribbon
& thank you for all that you share and your visits to my blog

La Belette Rouge said...

There is a real poetry to this post. Even as you talk about science, I see beauty. You manage both at the same time and that is a real art.

Mariana Soffer said...

the walking man

I think you might find this interesting, is about how math and nature are interrrelated:

Over the course of its history, mathematics, as a field of endeavour, has increasingly distanced itself from its empirical roots to become an axiomatic science - i.e. a science whose objects of study are certain systems of mutually interrelated conceptual constructs, formally defined and delimited by means of axioms. This historical development of mathematics is intertwined with, and paralleled by, a change in the nature and role of axioms and axiomatization. Originally understood as the articulation of self-evident, generally agreed-upon propositions pertaining to the external objects, phenomena and principles under study, axiomatization has evolved into the activity of structuring a field of knowledge as a purely deductive system whose objects of study are intellectual constructs fully defined by the propositions put forth as the axioms of the field. Thus, for example, the axiom system of Euclidean geometry has evolved from a set of presumably self-evident certainties concerning a realm of external objects such as points, straight lines and angles, to a set of propositions intended as complete definitions of the concepts of "point", "straight line", "angle", etc., and aimed at recasting the study of geometric objects as a purely deductive pursuit.

Mariana Soffer said...

Harlequin
The begining of how he can not see the forest because he is a tree is perfect, he says really clever things there. I guess you can infer who wrote it. IT is pretty clear.

You know that lately I also tend to agree with poets, but only some of them, there are lots of stupid verses going around the web. But when I agree with a poem, it seems to me reality described at it s best.

Thanks a lot for your thoughts man

Mariana Soffer said...

human being

I am so glad you really like it, it makes me happy.

It is excelent what you wrote, I loved this part

are you the observer?
or the traveler?

or both?

It is something I am thinking about all the time.

I will write the answer in your web, I need some time for that.

Thanks a lot, you are a great man

Mariana Soffer said...

Val

I love what you say, it is amazing, you left me without air.
I think that art (guided by intuition) my play the role of exploring how to incorporate new things in human lives, like the scientific ones.

Thanks a lot for you compliment, you are amazing.
Love.

Mariana Soffer said...

A cuban in london:

Thanks a lot, but there are not mine there are from the comments left on the posts from my blog.

Intresting view of poetry, so it is a way of rebeling to common prose? is that what you mean? very interesting, I still have to think more about it.

Greating from BS AS., and thanks for stepping by.

Mariana Soffer said...

Uncle Tree
Thanks a lot uncle, the thing is that I find some of your phrases great, too good not to be posted.

You are right that sometimes science has that failure, that is the part where I do not like it, I think it should live in harmony with the other tihngs, not keeping everything for it.

That reminds me of the saying that sounds awfull in english "If you want to learn how to swim you need to jump into the water, explanations are not going to teach you how to do it"

I agree, it works better like it. You are going to have to excuse me here, but I can not understand what you mean by "Not only do we have to walk, but thou art being asked to walk with our feet a foot above the ground." sorry for it uncle, if you can let me know what does it refer to, thanks.

Excelent paragraph the final one, I loved it, I also think you are right, no need to make sense there.

Thank s a lot for your amazing comment uncle

Mariana Soffer said...

Uncle Tree
Thanks a lot uncle, the thing is that I find some of your phrases great, too good not to be posted.

You are right that sometimes science has that failure, that is the part where I do not like it, I think it should live in harmony with the other tihngs, not keeping everything for it.

That reminds me of the saying that sounds awfull in english "If you want to learn how to swim you need to jump into the water, explanations are not going to teach you how to do it"

I agree, it works better like it. You are going to have to excuse me here, but I can not understand what you mean by "Not only do we have to walk, but thou art being asked to walk with our feet a foot above the ground." sorry for it uncle, if you can let me know what does it refer to, thanks.

Excelent paragraph the final one, I loved it, I also think you are right, no need to make sense there.

Thank s a lot for your amazing comment uncle

Mariana Soffer said...

Ribbon

Thanks a lot dear, you are also really nice. I enjoy going to your place, there are beautifull and intersting things I can discover there

Thanks and take care

Mariana Soffer said...

La Belette Rouge

I am really happy that you liked it, the merit is from the commenters of this blog, those are the ones that left these amazing talks.

Thanks a lot for stepping by, nice to see you came by!

~otto~ said...

Your thoughts on art are fascinating, and your comment that "time is not linear" is something I have believed for quite some time but still have a hard time getting my mind around.

And this is fantastic: "I believe poetry is a more accurate description of the world" and "art is also crucial for the well being of the brain." Agree agree agree agree agree.

Great post.

Mariana Soffer said...

otto
Thanks you very much for your compliments, although I do agreee what it is written here, I have to tell you that these quotes are parts of comments that the readers of this blog made.

Well JanetK said the thing about the brain, she is great, there is a link to her site at the bottom if you want to check. The other one I dare you to guess who is it from, you can check on the post related to the subject of my blog.

Thanks and take care

..................... said...

I made a big bang, and a choir of angels roared in my behalf. ...
that's beautiful! .. it's art.
XO

great post!

ps: oh .. i just noticed i'm about to comment as dark foam ... from my unblog ..

Mariana Soffer said...

.............

Hellow my abstract friend.

You actually did!!!! that is great, congrats for yourself, I enjoy it along with this post very well.

So you are dark foam http://thefoaming.blogspot.com/ I guess?
take care my dear friend

Ande said...

I have met many scientists and some artists. My question (opting for a life in the earlier mentioned field) have always revolved around "how come artists seems to have more fun?". My mentors and teachers in the field of science have not seemingly had that fun (but who knows). And the brain needs fun, as you pointed out.

Is old age in some way connected with the absence of art in the brain? The process which leads to lesser and lesser electrical activity in the brain (and indeed the body) must be interconnected with a lower level of cellular repair activity. Are we humans merely tipping over at a certain age or can we extend lifespans by keeping our minds in action (and pump in ridicules sums into life science?)

When I worked on a boring routine problem yesterday I involuntarily began to write this instead

I can feel the winter steaming out of me as I'm walking throw an open meadow-forest. The last leaves are falling and I see some almost wild hogs walking around the meadows. It might be so that they will survive the bloodbath called Christmas.

Oh well back to work.

Mariana Soffer said...

Ande

Very intersting comment, you really left me thinking.
First I think that some people are more shy than others, those, tend to choose the scientific path in life, because it is easy for them, they do not have to talk to that much many people be fun, have fun, they feel safer staying with their books than with other people, they need more protection than other s do, I guess.


The brain is exactelly like the body, you need to start exercising at a sertain age in order for it not to awfully decay. You can excercise different areas of it I guess, scientific, artistic, social skills, and other areas that can benefit for being stimulated.


Lovely last paragraph, great poetry man, that is one of the things I like about you, you can improvise anymoment, anytime.

Take care and work well dear A

Mark Kerstetter said...

My favorite part is the section in Science and Art beginning "1. i know" and ending "9. beyond". I like the way you put this together; it reads like a poem.

Mariana Soffer said...

Mark Kerstetter

Thank you very much mark, your comentary is really encouranging for me.
That incredible comment was made by a great artist, and it is a poem indeed just like you say, it was done all and in that order by a guy who does amazing modern visual art, I guess you can have a feeling about who he is.

Take care and tks for comming.